Can you reverse engineer an ASIC?

(blog.janestreet.com)

38 points | by bschne 2 hours ago

7 comments

  • zie1ony 41 minutes ago
    At my uni, 15 years ago, one postdoc reverse engineered NVIDIA chip and wrote more performant compiler. He did that by connecting oscyloscops to all chip's outputs and started with applying random current on inputs. Using ML and his genius he rediscoverd all opcodes including a few hidden ones. Eventually he got hired by some company that was doing a lot of GPU on supercomputers.
    • inigyou 34 minutes ago
      You can't do that by applying random inputs to any integrated GPU. I can see that perhaps it worked on some of the early multi-chip cards - where one chip was a texture sampler, and so on.

      You'll have more luck reverse engineering the software driver first. They're not hidden, you can just open the driver files in Ghidra, the almost-universal tool for open-sourcing proprietary code. Hidden opcodes can be discovered first by just trying all the opcodes you couldn't discover any other way. You only need to go to the physical level if they're really hidden.

      • sigbottle 8 minutes ago
        To be fair, Ghidra was released in 2019 and in general knowledge was still hard to find even back in 2010 I feel (well, compared to 2026 in the age of AI)
  • whitten 49 minutes ago
    Is there something like an Extract-SPICE tool that takes a circuit and gives you back a text rendering of it ?
    • Joel_Mckay 16 minutes ago
      Practically No, the stack-up of metal layers often hides the gate structures underneath, and the billions of process cells may not all be the same.

      Theoretically Yes, as an ion-beam-mill and electron-microscope combination machine can slice up semiconductors layer-by-layer. Given these machines can often also give precise x-ray analysis material data, the exact makeup of the chip can be extracted by competitors given enough time. =3

  • inigyou 24 minutes ago
    Is this the chip they used to steal money from the Indian stock market until they got banned from India?
  • NooneAtAll3 1 hour ago
    looks like they didn't post any blog post about 2nd NN challenge (https://huggingface.co/spaces/jane-street/droppedaneuralnet)

    I was waiting for some writeup about permutation decyphering

  • q3k 34 minutes ago
    In a simplified scenario (not too far from this)? Yeah, we've done that in CTFs almost a decade ago.

    https://blog.dragonsector.pl/2017/10/?m=1

    • inigyou 32 minutes ago
      From where do I know the name Dragon Sector and q3k? You aren't the ones who hacked the train DRM, are you? Or maybe active in the demo scene? Or maybe I'm just confusing you with TRSi?
      • q3k 29 minutes ago
        Maybe. :)
  • IshKebab 1 hour ago
    That sounds like a fun challenge. Feels a lot more tractable than the neural net one.
  • ck2 46 minutes ago
    people who can do this stuff are super-smartypants

    but reminds me how we're going to find out on an industrial level when the Saudis give China some nvidia chips they were grifted

    they've cloned lots of chips before but nothing that advanced

    • inigyou 32 minutes ago
      China has no shortage of Nvidia chips. It costs nothing (relatively) for someone to just buy a 5090 off the shelf and send it there.