Finding a CPU Design Bug in the Xbox 360 (2018)

(randomascii.wordpress.com)

111 points | by mariuz 4 days ago

5 comments

  • chasil 3 hours ago
    It is interesting that IBM dominated this generation of consoles, and was vanquished in the next.

    The high failure rates of the Xbox 360 did not help.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xbox_360_technical_problems

    • vondur 3 hours ago
      I thought the design flaws of the Xbox 360 cooling system had more to do with Microsoft than any inherent design flaw by IBM. I assumed that switching to x86 processors let Microsoft leverage their native developer tools from Windows which helped developers.
      • chasil 3 hours ago
        The main issue was revealed to be solder.

        "Microsoft did not reveal the cause of the issues publicly until 2021, when a 6-part documentary on the history of Xbox was released. The Red Ring issue was caused by the cracking of solder joints inside the GPU flip chip package, connecting the GPU to the substrate interposer, as a result of thermal stress from heating up and cooling back down when the system is power cycled."

        • timw4mail 2 hours ago
          And there was the same problem with early PS3s, on Nvidia's GPU package...it was a fairly widespread problem at the time.
          • rwmj 2 hours ago
            And Apple iBook G3s too. There's a whole thing with owners reflowing the GPU: https://www.instructables.com/Fixing-the-infamous-iBook-scre...
            • keyringlight 1 hour ago
              I seem to recall baking PC nvidia GPU boards in your oven was a reasonably common out-of-warranty fix around that era.
            • Moosdijk 48 minutes ago
              I had to do this with my MacBook Pro models early 2015 and late 2017.

              It seems like there was a period in time when solder just wasn’t done well, it seems like.

          • hbn 2 hours ago
            I don't have any solid numbers on me, but I believe early 360s failing wasn't just widespread; it was straight up most of them dying within the first couple years. It's honestly insane they more or less got away with that. And I guess also speaks to how much Microsoft was killing it in that era that people were willing to go through multiple console RMAs (which I heard was a terrible, slow, and unreliable process) to play 360 games. How far they've fallen.
            • Aarostotle 57 minutes ago
              Simple answer: Halo 3.
            • kjkjadksj 1 hour ago
              Whenever we lost a 360 we got a pre owned 360 from gamestop. I think they went for like $70 for one without any hdd.
            • rustystump 1 hour ago
              Family got first gen 360. Still works to this day. We hit the jackpot with that console. It out lasted 2 wiis and a ps2
        • esaym 16 minutes ago
          When did the industry transition to different/lead free solders? Wonder if that was part of the issue?
        • thenthenthen 2 hours ago
          Sounds like the 2012(?) Macbook Pro after the switch to leadless solder (?). I had to cook my motherboard 3 times in the oven to revive it.
    • cptskippy 1 hour ago
      > It is interesting that IBM dominated this generation of consoles, and was vanquished in the next.

      IBM's Power was the only logical option at the time.

      These consoles were being designed around 2000. Intel and AMD weren't partnering on bespoke CPUs at that time. I don't even think AMD would have been considered a viable partner. Neither had viable 64 bit options and part of console marketing at the time was the ever increasing bit depths.

      Prior console generations had use MIPS which wasn't keeping up with ever increasing performance expectations and players like Toshiba and Sony were looking for a higher performance CPU architecture. IBM's Power architecture was really the only option. Sony, Toshiba, and IBM partnered to develop their a new 64 bit microarchitecture called Cell.

      Microsoft's first console was basically a PC and that's how everyone saw it. The 360 was an opportunity for Microsoft to show that it could compete with the big boys. It was also an opportunity to keep a toe dipped in RISC, because it had dropped support for RISC CPUs with Windows 2000.

      • Grazester 1 hour ago
        By the way, the AMD athlon 64-bit launched 2003. The PS3 launched in 2006. I had an AMD64 bit process in my laptop in 2005.

        What wasn't viable?

        • chasil 43 minutes ago
          I have some confidence that AMD's acquisition of ATI had a huge impact.

          That allowed both a CPU and an advanced GPU to be on the same die.

          They also wisely sold Global Foundries, and were able to scale with TSMC.

        • Narishma 52 minutes ago
          Yeah that part didn't make sense, not to mention that neither the PS3 nor the 360 were running 64-bit software. They didn't have enough memory for it to be worth it.
          • sidewndr46 22 minutes ago
            you don't need memory to make 64 bit software worth it. Just 64 bit mathematics requirements. Which basically no video game console uses as from what I understand 32-bit floating point continue to be state of the art in video game simulations
            • duped 1 minute ago
              Fundamentally it's still a memory limitation, just in terms of memory latency/cache misses instead of capacity. If you double the size of your numbers you're doubling the space it takes up and all the problems that come with it.
  • TazeTSchnitzel 1 hour ago
  • jszymborski 3 hours ago
    Would need "(2018)" in the title.
  • NooneAtAll3 1 hour ago
    unrelated, but recently XBox One was hacked for the first time

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTFn4UZsA5U

    • brcmthrowaway 1 hour ago
      How does XBox get hacked when it uses Secure Boot?
      • Tuna-Fish 7 minutes ago
        Voltage glitching. An outside attacker who has direct, extremely fine-grained control over the power supply to the chip can cause it to brown out for one instruction cycle, preventing a result of an instruction from being written.

        With enough sophistication, physical access is more powerful than root access, no exceptions.