Ask HN: Is building a calm, non-gamified learning app a mistake?

I’ve been working on a small language learning app as a solo developer.

I intentionally avoided gamification, streaks, subscriptions, and engagement tricks. The goal was calm learning — fewer distractions, more focus.

I’m starting to wonder if this approach is fundamentally at odds with today’s market.

For those who’ve built or used learning tools: – Does “calm” resonate, or is it too niche? – What trade-offs have you seen when avoiding gamification?

Not here to promote — genuinely looking for perspective.

29 points | by hussein-khalil 2 hours ago

35 comments

  • Uehreka 1 hour ago
    Not doing subscriptions for an app that has ongoing server costs is going to bite you, you may want to reconsider that.

    Your biggest issue is going to be that language learning for adults is largely an unsolved problem. I know people with 1000+ day streaks on Duolingo who are nonetheless not fluent, and from everything I’ve read, it seems clear that spaced-repetition techniques are not sufficient (and possibly not necessary) to achieve fluency. Most people say you need immersion, which is difficult for an app to provide (research other people who have tried, you probably wouldn’t be the first and can save a lot of time, effort and heartbreak by learning from other people’s failures).

    • carabiner 1 hour ago
      It's solved, look up comprehensible input: https://www.dreaming.com/blog-posts/what-is-comprehensible-i...

      The problem is duolingo is particularly horrible and is intended to get people addicted, not educate.

    • fragmede 1 hour ago
      while I'm wary of sprinkling AI magic fairy dust on top of everything, the fact that ChatGPT voice mode and the app is fluent in many languages, an interesting conversational partner for the immersion aspect.
      • bisonbear 25 minutes ago
        I've been exploring the "AI as conversation partner for immersion" use case for a project I'm building and find it pretty helpful for a few reasons

        1. Effectively infinite engaging comprehensible input at your level 2. Fantastic way to practice new vocabulary and grammar patterns (AI can provide correction for mistakes) 3. Somewhat fun - if you view chat as a choose your own adventure, the experience becomes more interesting

  • UtopiaPunk 19 minutes ago
    I think I understand a desire for "calm" learning. I'm not especially interested in learning a language right now. However, I do generally have a distaste for "gamified" learning, and, separately, I feel distracted by things I feel are not very fulfilling, but are addicting (namely, scrolling through news, social media, or videos on my phone).

    I won't say what you are building is a mistake. But just based on what you described, if I were interested in learning a language through your app, I would not just be comparing it to other language learning apps, but I would also be comparing it to language textbooks/workbooks, classes at a community college or MOOC, or language courses on DVD/CD/YouTube/etc. I guess I think that apps are good at gamifying things, if that were to be a goal. If you are stripping that away, what makes your app unique compared to all those other resources? How does your app replace or supplement other things?

    And to be clear, I imagine there could be plenty of things that make your app unique! I just would want to know what those things are before diving in.

  • AlanYx 1 hour ago
    I think there is room for non-gamified learning apps depending on the field and how it's intended to be used. A good example is the field of early reading instruction. The best two apps right now IMHO are Reading.com and Mentava, and they take radically different approaches. Mentava is pretty gamified and kids can use it on its own, whereas Reading.com is basically a computer implementation of Siegfried Engelmann's instructional approach. Has to be used with a parent accompaniment, and most of the onscreen widgets are just there to facilitate co-teaching. Both apps are good and seem to be landing with their target markets, obviously the simpler one is aiming at a lower price point.

    Poor gamification is a bigger risk than non-gamification done well IMHO. That's where a lot of children's learning apps have failed in the past.

  • fbelzile 37 minutes ago
    Not a mistake. Making an app that fits this niche might be how you differentiate yourself in the market and succeed as a solo developer. It'll let you grow at a slower pace, making it easier to iterate the app over time as you see fit. You could always offer an add-on service in the form of a subscription in the future.

    I run a productivity desktop app by myself and have been doing it full time since 2017. The app is a one time payment, free support, no gimmicks, no marketing. Support is becoming time consuming, but profit is high enough that I may hire a few people to help soon.

    Good luck! High growth rates with investors is one way to do things, but not the only way.

  • integralid 15 minutes ago
    My favourite - by a large margin - language learning app is Anki. This is an open source flashcards app, with minimalistic (one could say primitive) UI and no gamification whatsoever[1].

    So yes, I see value in programs like this.

    [1] to be fair, my STEM brain enjoys looking at my review statistics and charts. But they are non-intrusive and one has to actively look for them, so it's nowhere near gamification.

  • bisonbear 29 minutes ago
    I've been using these fundamentals (calm, non-gamified, emphasis on focus & flow) for building a Mandarin language learning via chat with AI. My goal was to give the user a focused tool (i.e. chat with an AI at your level) and let them experiment & play at their own pace.

    However, due to the more user-driven approach to this learning method (output-focused, user has to put in effort to chat with the AI and get feedback), there is more friction with using the tool. This isn't necessarily a bad thing - in fact, more friction can lead to more meaningful experiences. That being said, I believe the market will push tools to be low friction and low effort (i.e. gamified apps) that are focused on consumption rather than tools that require more user effort.

    just my 2c from a fellow builder. if curious, check it out here! would love any feedback

    https://koucai.chat

  • rlupi 1 hour ago
    I actively avoid anything that is gamified or uses engagement tricks.

    I don't mind paying a subscription, if the app provides ongoing updates or new content that I value, or I understand why it has running costs. I would prefer if the app had extension packs, like games' DLCs over a subscription. If an app has a subscription, I will immediately cancel the subscription after subscribing to avoid the recurring cost (if I forget to cancel after year or so). If I find the app valuable, I will re-subscribe as needed.

  • jstummbillig 57 minutes ago
    Yes, according to Duolingo's (obviously biased) CEO.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=st6uE-dlunY

    Found this episode fairly interesting (without being particularly interested or personally invested in the space)

    • jrowen 22 minutes ago
      This is interesting and a nice conversation, thank you.

      He talks about how they wanted to let people know that they would stop sending them notifications after five days of inactivity, but that the "passive-aggressive" nature of that notification actually got people to come back. To me it illustrates that it's such a fine line to walk if you want to respect the user but also maybe push through their own lack of motivation.

      (I'm not a user of Duolingo so I can't speak to where they land on that but it's clearly controversial)

  • nhoven 43 minutes ago
    Hi - Mentava founder here (we make gamified early literacy software). Obviously I believe in the value of gamification, though I think it's difficult to do correctly.

    There's certainly a market for "calm" learning, though you've already identified the main challenge: there's a smaller larger market for people who want to be educated than entertained, and the market for "calm education" is going to be an even smaller subset of that education market.

    Essentially you're looking for the people who are saying "I want to be educated, but I'm not looking for the most efficient way to do it. I would prefer to move at a slower pace being driven purely by intrinsic motivation, rather than using extrinsic motivators in order to encourage me to move more quickly"

    That market certainly exists, but it's a small enough niche that you'll likely have to be compete at a high price point to be viable. As point of comparison, Mentava costs $500/month, so if I were building a calm learning app (for an even smaller market), I would try to figure out a way justify an even higher price point than Mentava's.

  • jrowen 48 minutes ago
    Gamify it like Super Mario Brothers is a game. Concepts like "fun" and "progress" are good. Nagging, begging, and creating false urgency are bad. Gamification is fine if it doesn't "take over," which it will when business people are running the show.

    I feel like there was a time when those coding problem websites with points and leaderboards and such struck a good balance between learning and a game. Then they seemingly all got co-opted by the interview prep industry.

  • kunley 55 minutes ago
    Please, de-gamify the universe of digital education, by all means.

    There's no evidence that gamification is strengthening performance in any activity, other that creating a cheap dopamine effect.

    Please, do it your own way.

  • Tobani 1 hour ago
    I used https://learn.mangolanguages.com/ to get to something like ~b1/b2 in French after a year. I did a lesson or two every day, and did all of the review, pretty much much every day.

    I spent 8 years in jr high - college studying German without having any real competency in German, it did however teach me something about learning another language.

    Mango isn't gamified. Its basically a curated set of flashcards, and the lessons are essentially flashcards themed together. There are some extra explainers throw in that are helpful. I really enjoyed it.

    On top of Mango as the primary lessons, I've been listening to podcasts, watching series in french, reading books, etc.

    I didn't pay anything for mango, it was entirely funded by my local library so that was great.

  • pchristensen 1 hour ago
    Gamification helps with growth and engagement but not necessarily learning. I have a feeling that a "calm" app would grow more slowly but if the experience and results are good, you could have more durable and satisfied customers, less churn, etc.
  • heliumtera 1 hour ago
    I think yes. If you don't create an obvious avenue for the user to infer his development, he won't be able to do it. You have to confuse the audience to bring in the sense of progress. People learn by being challenged, confused, and by building something. Nobody learns by interfacing with an application that promises it. But besides learning nothing, they can feel good about being engaged, by completing tasks, seeing progress bar moving, seeing number go up. Someone that decides to interface with a learning app instead of learning the damn thing is doomed, will never learn anything at all. Just give them a sense of accomplishment so they can feel good about it. Without gamification what would the platform give them? If don't help them cope with their inertia, there really is nothing you could do. Maybe you are equating gamification with dark patterns? Gamification is not necessarily a bad thing. It is a powerful psychological trick. Can definitely be used for good. Working on performance often feels amazing because we can profile, identify clear bottlenecks and work to reduce them. When you manage to make number go down, you have a clear indication something went right. Maybe you didn't absolutely improve de code, but you made it better in a very specific way under a very specific lens. People like it because of this aspect, and it does feel a little bit like a game. There is a clear requirement and a clear specification. The game aspect makes it very enjoyable. I suppose development against a test suite provides a similar experience. Feels good in a game-ish way. Gamification is more related to the feels good than dark patterns, but obviously, the whole industry will ONLY be interested in exploiting practices. There is no incentive to make the user feel good, at all, without being pervasive. If you care about your user, you should design around the user. Inevitably, you will think a bunch about what feels good. If all you care about is the user learning, developing competence, you will offer no platform at all. The platform will tell them to close it and go do the thing. If you want to motivate them, another story. If you want them to feel accomplished, another story. You're building a feels good, want to feel accomplished want to fool myself into learning app.s gamification is the whole point.
  • chabad360 2 hours ago
    I'm working on a project in a very similar space, and we decided to add gamification. We don't want to harass our users or annoy them into using the app, and therefore our notifications will be easily manageable. But we believe that gamification is very helpful for encouraging users to learn consistently, and so we will include it. But at the same time, we are putting a lot of intention into it not being a distraction (both within the app, and outside it).
    • nottorp 1 hour ago
      > our notifications will be easily manageable

      Yep. "App XXX would like to send you notifications" -> "Do not allow" :)

  • miroljub 1 hour ago
    I'll give you one example, and you can decide for yourself.

    Mid of this year, I accidentally found out about a great independent language learning app [1]. It clicked for me. It was no bullshit, no gamification, and no distraction. I used it for one or two months, 700 hours in total. I can attribute to it some progress in learning my target language.

    Then I went on vacation for a few weeks and completely forgot about it. Today I tried to find it again, but since I forgot its name, I couldn't find it easily. Normally, I would search my inbox, but there was not a single mail from it. When I found it, I learned it improved quite a bit and added a way to support the app through subscriptions.

    Now, if it had some promotions or gamification built-in, I would be reminded of its existence and would most probably have been using it at least 700 more hours until today, and maybe even subscribed to it. And it would bring me closer to reaching the learning goal in my target language.

    TL;DR: Yes, some gamification or nagging is necessary. But don't overdo it.

    [1] https://morpheem.org/

  • vignesh-prasad 52 minutes ago
    I tried building a learning app (iraproject.com) for students and eventually the market just pushed me towards gamification and traditional school methods. I held out for a year but at some point I needed to pay the bills. If you're able to I'd encourage you to stay true to your values but know that it takes a lot of time and patience to make it work.
  • karpovv-boris 2 hours ago
    Could we say that Anki is a non-gamified app for learning?
  • GuB-42 1 hour ago
    To me, a learning needs some kind of gamification and engagement tricks. There is nothing calm about learning, you need the dopamine! Among other things, dopamine is the learning hormone, it is a problem when it makes you learn the wrong things, like "fentanyl is really great", or "I need to buy more stuff I don't need", but it is also what helps you learn useful skills and life lessons.

    I remember my father, a teacher, who told me he viewed his job in the classroom as a performance art. His knowledge was secondary, if that's knowledge you want, just read a book, go to the internet, whatever, you don't need a teacher. But it is not very engaging, and a teacher's job is to make it more engaging.

    So without engagement, you probably won't make a good learning app, but you can make the engagement entirely targeted towards learning and not monetization, which would be a very good thing.

  • elcapitan 1 hour ago
    For me most forced interactions by modern apps (also the constant nagging about updates and new features) is the main factor why I'm trying to get rid of them. Not really in the market for language learning myself, but the app not being gamified would be a positive selling point, yes.
  • chux52 1 hour ago
    If your goal is more users, it would make sense to have a calm setting.

    If you want to build the app you want to use, go for it.

  • glemmaPaul 54 minutes ago
    No I think you should continue, frigging done with gamification of everything, I hope to just learn well
  • drakonka 1 hour ago
    I'd love an app like this. I usually go through my Anki deck in bed before sleep and in the morning and am always on the lookout for other language learning methods. Being in bed, I don't want anything too gamified or exciting during that time. Just some calm/chill practice before I sleep.
    • codyb 1 hour ago
      Immersion's best in my experience... and you can create immersion

      Things I do more and more often as time goes in Spanish

      - Subtitles in Spanish always on whenever possible

      - Audio (music (just bought some Bad Bunny), television, sports broadcasts)

      - Order in Spanish

      - Interfaces in Spanish (computers, televisions, phones)

      - Text friends

      - Consume news

      - Read wikipedia when I need information

      - Take notes for work and life

      - Play videogames

      It really starts compounding, my goal is to stop using the Anki decks entirely in 2026. At that point I should be able to start learning whatever my next goal is in Spanish so that I can continue using my Spanish while working on... cooking or whatever it is I want to focus in on next

      • drakonka 1 hour ago
        Totally agree and I do all those things. My desire for a calm, non-gamified learning app would not be a replacement for all other methods.
  • TACIXAT 1 hour ago
    I don't really care if it is calm or not, I care if it teaches me a language. Duolingo doesn't really get you there in terms of language learning. Also, does it teach speaking, listening, reading, writing? Each of these goals is different.
  • terabytest 2 hours ago
    No experience in the field, other than 2048, so take this with a grain of salt.

    In my opinion it’s about your ethical stance and who your target audience is, and whether you’re trying to make a ton of money or just enough to survive. You’re obviously going to fight an uphill battle if you don’t employ any such (predatory?) marketing tactics. However, you could position yourself as explicitly standing against those and that might attract a smaller but loyal user base.

    If you’re lucky, and build something good, and people talk about it, you might find that you’ll get users regardless. However, at the end of the day, what matters is whether you can keep the lights on, so you may have to relax some of your stances and rules or find ways to market your product that don’t fall into the categories you’ve described.

  • lenerdenator 2 hours ago
    Depends.

    Do you want to make an app or do you want to float some VC's balance sheet?

  • kacperlukawski 1 hour ago
    Although it's in a different area, I wanted to mention https://calmcode.io/ as an excellent example of a calm learning platform.

    There is a whole movement around enshittification, and I see potential in this kind of app, even though it still seems to be a niche.

    • cantdutchthis 1 hour ago
      Creator of calmcode here, AskMeAnything[tm].
      • Kerrick 1 hour ago
        Do you accept contributions?
    • exasperaited 1 hour ago
      Oh, thanks for this link. Looks great and it may suit me well. I need to settle in and learn Python but I am experiencing tremendously severe dysregulation at the moment, and my normal quick deep learning is simply not happening.
  • nonameiguess 1 hour ago
    I don't think it's a mistake. Non-subscription without clear gamification and engagement tricks seems like Rosetta Stone basically and that's the longest-running, most effective language learning software I'm aware of. When I joined the Army 18 years ago, while waiting for school assignment, I had the opportunity to train provincial reconstruction teams as a role player and had to cram learn some reasonable level of conversational Pashtun and that was what we used, before smart phones were widely adopted. The only real innovation I've seen since then is conversational LLMs that allow you free-form practice without a human partner, but even back then, scripted conversational practice was pretty good as long as there was a wide enough diversity of scripts.

    Problem is more along the lines of "solo developer" here. Hacker News seems to have a real thing about this niche for whatever reason, but when doing something like this that I think requires real expertise in a wide variety of subjects that aren't software development, I think you need help. There's no way something like Rosetta Stone was developed without the input of experts in language learning and teaching, for instance. Knowing the platforms, programming languages, frameworks, and app store onboarding and delivery processes is already a lot for one person, but expecting to know the target domain on top of that is expecting an awful lot from yourself. I don't think it's a great sign trying to crowdsource business strategy from a free web discussion board, as a single example. This is the kind of conversation you want to have with your private team of people you know for sure have the experience they claim to have, not anonymous comments.

  • exasperaited 1 hour ago
    If you are avoiding subscriptions, are you doing credit buckets? Up front X months in advance and a reminder to top up?

    I find either of these more ethical but it is worth noting that any non-expiring, roll-over credit scheme is going to kill you. All you need is one or two months where you’re focussed on infrastructure instead of fresh content and you will find users get out of the habit of using it up, which can end up with you effectively in debt to your users, who will expect more value the longer they wait.

  • kilianinbox 1 hour ago
    Books?
  • apercu 1 hour ago
    > I’m starting to wonder if this approach is fundamentally at odds with today’s market.

    I don't want to project, but outside of video gaming, I'm seeing people in my personal networks pull back from digital more and more - not because these tools and apps aren't useful, but because they are so hostile.

    So you might be ahead of your time. That said, businesses cost money to run so you need to assess your churn if you aren't going to have a subscription model.

  • exe34 1 hour ago
    I use anki daily and I like that it doesn't nag me.
  • outside1234 1 hour ago
    I think streaks are a good thing (consistency) if you push the user to look at them in aggregate (ala the Github green checkbox) not in terms of punishment for missing a day (aka a single number).

    I like how Anki does it for example.

    Also, guide the user to find a non-burnout rate. It is easy to set yourself up for destruction with learning apps and I like how Anki told me "slow down Cowboy" in terms of the new card rate because I hadn't worked out that going too fast on this would result in an avalanche in two weeks in terms of review cards.

  • username223 18 minutes ago
    It depends upon what you're trying to accomplish, and for whom. Are you trying to make money from casual language dabblers? Create a useful resource for people whose livelihoods depend upon learning a language? Teach yourself?

    I tried learning a language via Duolingo for a while. I treated it as "free flash cards with pronunciation," and tried to ignore the gamification and cutesy animated characters. I ditched it when it went all-in on AI slop. I've since found a free 1990s-style website that has common phrases, conjugation rules, etc. with pronunciation, and have learned much more.

  • Y444 54 minutes ago
    TL;DR you have to be like Duolingo only if you plan to monetize like them.

    ---

    I think it totally depends on your goals, let's try breaking down why Duolingo is doing what they're doing, and then we'll try to map it onto your own goals.

    So, Duolingo monetises via mostly subscriptions, this means that their sales funnel is something like UA channels -> conversion to install -> conversion to subscription -> conversion to renewal.

    Leaving out the first two steps (it's marketing I am not competent enough to discuss them), we arrive at "conversion to subscription". The only thing I'll mention regarding user acquisition is that we have to keep in mind, that users from standard marketing channels are always less motivated/interested in a product, that organic users, who are actively seeking the solution for their so called "pains".

    In order to convert a user to a subscriber, one has to have an appealing value proposition, which for Duolingo is something like "learn the language in a really fun and engaging way", they support this proposition by including gamification elements, both mechanical (streaks, lives, mini-games) and narrative (cast of characters).

    The perceived value for a user also becomes more apparent the more the user interacts with an app (see metrics like time spent, retention rate, stickiness). Thus, the aforementioned gamification mechanics also serve retention purposes (namely, the main thing - the streak) both between sessions and inside a single session.

    So the more a user is with Duolingo, the more value she perceives in it ("sunken cost" fallacy also comes into play here), and the more the probability she will subscribe.

    ---

    Now, coming back to your question. From your post I see that you're talking about "today's market" so I assume you want to sell it somehow.

    You face a choice:

    - Go standard UA route, acquiring users via ads, this will potentially get you a lot of traffic, if you have money to spend. Downside: you have to have A LOT of money to spend in order to make positive ROI, as ad traffic is not as motivated, and you'll have hard time making these people convert to paid users without all that fluff Duolingo is doing. Sure "calm tech" is sort of popular thing nowadays, you can play off of that, but still, you have to convince these people to stay with you, learn the value of your thing and eventually pay for it.

    – Target a niche in a non-traditional way, via Reddit (though it is not that non-traditional way nowadays), communities etc. Basically direct sales. This way might get you much more focused audience who will gladly be your paying customers. Those people will NOT need bells and whistles. Downside: you really have to nail the solution for them, or they'll get back to their custom Anki decks.